Dynomotion

Group: DynoMotion Message: 3164 From: Ron Date: 1/17/2012
Subject: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Disclaimer: MY OWN FAULT! I should have tested/verified this before placing an order.

I bought this product thinking I was getting a controller and software that was roughly equivalent to Mach3 + Smooth Stepper, but with a decent API capability. That last feature was a winner, I'm buying a controller because my own software/firmware just isn't good enough.

I've now downloaded and installed the software and I'm having a poke around. Wow. Scared.

Does it actually work? I mean, when my board arrives can I plug it into a computer, set a few axis values, and expect it to run gcode?

I think my biggest scare has been the way that the dialogs for KMotionCNC just fell apart on my screen. That doesn't inspire confidence.

Then I saw the Step Size setting and went to the documentation for an explanation. I'm still looking.

My confidence is falling rapidly.

Here's what I want to achieve.

I have a Microcarve MV3, powered by Probotix electronics that I currently run at quarter-stepping. When my board arrives I want to connect it to a parallel port (Ok, I might need a cable); set parameters for each axis like TPI, steps, microsteps and direction; load a file of gcode and press 'Run'.

Just how difficult is it going to be to make that happen?

Ron.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3165 From: Wcarrothers Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
First take a second and breath Ron,

I have been running Mach since 2006 and did parallel, g100, smooth stepper the hole bit.

That machine  that has the SS runs parallel port to,  I can switch between them.  And to be honest I run it in parallel more the in SS mode.  That said I've never had an issue or crash with the SS+ Mach combo.  Just does not give much of an advantage to make me click the other icon to run int that way.

On me larger machine 2 I have the k flop and kanalog.  Mostly chose that on ger's recommendation or rather him telling me it existed and the fact it could control my analog drives I got for it.  

Yea it took more a learning curve to get it to work as it does today.  I would characterize it as some where between a drop in like the SS and something that takes a bit of work to get working.  

But the point is,  it is better the then both parallel or the SS in every way.  Thus way worth the slight learning curve.  


B



On Jan 18, 2012, at 2:44 AM, "Ron" <ron.dunn@...> wrote:

 

Disclaimer: MY OWN FAULT! I should have tested/verified this before placing an order.

I bought this product thinking I was getting a controller and software that was roughly equivalent to Mach3 + Smooth Stepper, but with a decent API capability. That last feature was a winner, I'm buying a controller because my own software/firmware just isn't good enough.

I've now downloaded and installed the software and I'm having a poke around. Wow. Scared.

Does it actually work? I mean, when my board arrives can I plug it into a computer, set a few axis values, and expect it to run gcode?

I think my biggest scare has been the way that the dialogs for KMotionCNC just fell apart on my screen. That doesn't inspire confidence.

Then I saw the Step Size setting and went to the documentation for an explanation. I'm still looking.

My confidence is falling rapidly.

Here's what I want to achieve.

I have a Microcarve MV3, powered by Probotix electronics that I currently run at quarter-stepping. When my board arrives I want to connect it to a parallel port (Ok, I might need a cable); set parameters for each axis like TPI, steps, microsteps and direction; load a file of gcode and press 'Run'.

Just how difficult is it going to be to make that happen?

Ron.

Group: DynoMotion Message: 3168 From: himykabibble Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
How much work you need to do depends on your machine configuration, and what functionality you need. For some, there's probably little more required than building the Init.c to setup the axis configurations, and this is largely "built" for you by the KMotion Axis Configuration dialog. Many spindle/coolant controls can be handled by the options built into KMotionCNC, some will likely require some C programming.

KFlop is a very stable, powerful, and extremely flexible controller, but it is not as easy to setup as a SmoothStepper. However, you'll get lots of help here for getting your system up and running.

Not sure what you mean by "the dialogs for KMotionCNC just fell apart on my screen"....

Regards,
Ray L.

--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <ron.dunn@...> wrote:
>
> Disclaimer: MY OWN FAULT! I should have tested/verified this before placing an order.
>
> I bought this product thinking I was getting a controller and software that was roughly equivalent to Mach3 + Smooth Stepper, but with a decent API capability. That last feature was a winner, I'm buying a controller because my own software/firmware just isn't good enough.
>
> I've now downloaded and installed the software and I'm having a poke around. Wow. Scared.
>
> Does it actually work? I mean, when my board arrives can I plug it into a computer, set a few axis values, and expect it to run gcode?
>
> I think my biggest scare has been the way that the dialogs for KMotionCNC just fell apart on my screen. That doesn't inspire confidence.
>
> Then I saw the Step Size setting and went to the documentation for an explanation. I'm still looking.
>
> My confidence is falling rapidly.
>
> Here's what I want to achieve.
>
> I have a Microcarve MV3, powered by Probotix electronics that I currently run at quarter-stepping. When my board arrives I want to connect it to a parallel port (Ok, I might need a cable); set parameters for each axis like TPI, steps, microsteps and direction; load a file of gcode and press 'Run'.
>
> Just how difficult is it going to be to make that happen?
>
> Ron.
>
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3169 From: carlcnc Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Ron
what you have bought is the an advanced and capable controller/software that can out perform products costing 5-10 times as much.
It is certainly overkill for the machine you have.
All the power does come however come with a bit of a learning curve.
Why do you need something new? looking for more speed or accuracy from your machine?
Carl

--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <ron.dunn@...> wrote:
>
> Disclaimer: MY OWN FAULT! I should have tested/verified this before placing an order.
>
> I bought this product thinking I was getting a controller and software that was roughly equivalent to Mach3 + Smooth Stepper, but with a decent API capability. That last feature was a winner, I'm buying a controller because my own software/firmware just isn't good enough.
>
> I've now downloaded and installed the software and I'm having a poke around. Wow. Scared.
>
> Does it actually work? I mean, when my board arrives can I plug it into a computer, set a few axis values, and expect it to run gcode?
>
> I think my biggest scare has been the way that the dialogs for KMotionCNC just fell apart on my screen. That doesn't inspire confidence.
>
> Then I saw the Step Size setting and went to the documentation for an explanation. I'm still looking.
>
> My confidence is falling rapidly.
>
> Here's what I want to achieve.
>
> I have a Microcarve MV3, powered by Probotix electronics that I currently run at quarter-stepping. When my board arrives I want to connect it to a parallel port (Ok, I might need a cable); set parameters for each axis like TPI, steps, microsteps and direction; load a file of gcode and press 'Run'.
>
> Just how difficult is it going to be to make that happen?
>
> Ron.
>
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3172 From: Ron Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Hi Ray,

There doesn't seem to be a Getting Started (or equivalent) guide that walks through the process of setting up this controller. Have I missed something?

BTW, here's a screen shot of the dialog layout problem. Happens on most of the layouts:

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EGsXTzBDYzIayGl4sXN5Q0nvybo8L9BljerUJoxxoo4habnNOrvfejJO79JQFEq1xqjjKBG62Ehl5fPRpRF9mFiwweE7fZfxmsUZ/roninbendigo/kmotion.jpg

Ron.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3173 From: Ron Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Hi Carl,

My need for a new controller is slightly embarrassing.

I wrote my own controller software for my first machine. That machine used a very light spindle, my new machine is much heavier. My software isn't coping with the increased weight on mid-arc acceleration requirements.

While I decide if it is worth fixing the code, I figured it was worth $200-300 to keep my machine running. I don't have any parallel ports on any computer in my house, so I looked for a USB solution. I saw some enthusiastic reports of the KFlop and bought without sufficient diligence.

Perhaps I'm not the target customer for this product, but the lack of documentation and the low standard of UI really makes me wonder how others get up and running.

Ron.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3174 From: Brad Murry Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?

Ron,

 

  I’m not sure which side of the fence you are on.

 

You start by stating that you are capable of creating your own control software and you liked the open API.  On the other hand you pre-complain about the system being too difficult to setup.

 

I am confused, which is it?

 

Can you provide constructive criticism that directly pertain to the problems you are experiencing.

 

-Brad Murry

 

From: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:26 PM
To: DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DynoMotion] Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?

 

 

Hi Carl,

My need for a new controller is slightly embarrassing.

I wrote my own controller software for my first machine. That machine used a very light spindle, my new machine is much heavier. My software isn't coping with the increased weight on mid-arc acceleration requirements.

While I decide if it is worth fixing the code, I figured it was worth $200-300 to keep my machine running. I don't have any parallel ports on any computer in my house, so I looked for a USB solution. I saw some enthusiastic reports of the KFlop and bought without sufficient diligence.

Perhaps I'm not the target customer for this product, but the lack of documentation and the low standard of UI really makes me wonder how others get up and running.

Ron.

Group: DynoMotion Message: 3176 From: Ron Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Hi Brad,

I liked the *concept* of an API, but an API without documentation is about as much use as mammaries on a male bovine!

That said, my immediate requirement has nothing to do with an API. I just want to be able to configure the product and run gcode. So far I can't find instructions that will make that happen.

Suggestions?

Ron.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3177 From: himykabibble Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
There is a lot of documentation on the Dynomotion website, but I agree it is difficult to find the bit you need, when you need it. But, asking here will always get you a prompt answer. KFlop does have a learning curve, and it can be frustrating at times, but getting the basics up is really not too difficult, and it WILL be worth the trouble. I struggled forever with bugs in Mach3, and just switched over to KFlop about a week ago, and so far have not had a single problem not of my own making.

That screenshot actually looks OK, except for that one set of jog buttons at a diagonal. No clue what's going on there. I expect TomK will be able to help you with that.

Regards,
Ray L.

--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <ron.dunn@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Ray,
>
> There doesn't seem to be a Getting Started (or equivalent) guide that walks through the process of setting up this controller. Have I missed something?
>
> BTW, here's a screen shot of the dialog layout problem. Happens on most of the layouts:
>
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EGsXTzBDYzIayGl4sXN5Q0nvybo8L9BljerUJoxxoo4habnNOrvfejJO79JQFEq1xqjjKBG62Ehl5fPRpRF9mFiwweE7fZfxmsUZ/roninbendigo/kmotion.jpg
>
> Ron.
>
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3178 From: himykabibble Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Ron,

The first thing you MUST do is axis configuration, which is pretty straight-forward. If you post information about how your machine is configured, I'm sure people here can help you get going pretty quickly. In particular:

What kind of axis drives, and how are they interfaced? Step/Dir steppers or servos? +/-10V analog?

Steps/inch or steps/mm, max velocity and acceleration?

Spindle/coolant control requirements? Simple relays? PWM? Closed loop?

The more you tell us, the more we can help. It's really not that hard, you just need to learn the right magic incantations.

Regards,
Ray L.

--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <ron.dunn@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Brad,
>
> I liked the *concept* of an API, but an API without documentation is about as much use as mammaries on a male bovine!
>
> That said, my immediate requirement has nothing to do with an API. I just want to be able to configure the product and run gcode. So far I can't find instructions that will make that happen.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Ron.
>
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3179 From: Ron Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Thank you for your help, Ray.

My machine uses step/dir signals to the drivers. The pulse width is at least 5us, and the driver uses negative logic.

The drivers are currently set for quarter-stepping, I could change this if necessary.

The screws are 12tpi, single start.

I don't care whether the controller runs in mm or inches, I can fix that in gcode.

I have no requirements for spindle control, coolant, limits, or anything like that.

This should be as simple as you can get and still have a 3-axis CNC :)

Ron.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3181 From: himykabibble Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Ron,

That should be quite simple then, and if I give you bum advice, I'm sure Tom or one of the other guys will speak up. You'll want to use axis channels 0-2 for your three axes, and map those to output channels 8-10. Open KMotion, and click on "Config & Flash" on the menu bar. To setup your X axis, do the following, working our way down the dialog:

Make sure Channel is set to "0"
Set Encoder to "No Input"
Set OutputChannel to "8"
Click "C-Code->Clipboard"
Open Notepad, and paste the clipboard into a new document

To setup your Y axis, do the following, working our way down the dialog:
Make sure Channel is set to "1"
Set Encoder to "No Input"
Set OutputChannel to "9"
Click "C-Code->Clipboard"
Go back to Notepad, and paste the clipboard to the end of the file you created above

To setup your Z axis, do the following, working our way down the dialog:
Make sure Channel is set to "2"
Set Encoder to "No Input"
Set OutputChannel to "10"
Click "C-Code->Clipboard"
Go back to Notepad, and paste the clipboard to the end of the file you created above

Save the Notepad document to any convenient location as "Init.c"
Now look at the code in Init.c. Add the following to the top of the file:

main()
{

and add a closing } after the last line of the file

Now look at the code you pasted in. You'll see each code block is setting axis configuration values for one axis, referenced as "ch0", "ch1", and "ch2". Most of these values do not need to be understood, but two of them do: "Vel", "Accel". "Vel" and "Accel" are critical. "Vel" specifies max velocity, in steps/second, "Accel" specifies max acceleration, in steps/second/second. Note the DSP itself has no concept of inches or mm, just steps or counts. Assuming you know your current max velocity (in inches/minute)and max acceleration (in inches/sec^2), you can convert these as follows:

Vel = (MAXIPM / 60) * STEPS/INCH
Accel = MAXACCEL * STEPS/INCH

So, your STEPS/INCH appears to be 200 * 4 * 12 = 9600

If your max velocity is 100 IPM, set Vel to 16,000
If your max acceleration is 25 in/sec^2, set Accel to 240,000

Do these calculations for each axis, and edit the new values into the appropriate init code block in your Init.c.

Save your Init.C, and go back to KMotion, and open the "C Program" dialog. Click on "Open", and select your Init.c. Once it's loaded, make sure your KFlop is plugged in and intialized, then click on the icon above the edit window on the far right - the one with all the arrows. This will compile, link, and load your init.c into the DSP. If there are any errors in your code, a dialog will pop up telling you where the problem is.

Once you have your code loading without error, hook up your drives. You'll want to connect them as follows:

XStep to P7 Pin 8
XDir to P7 Pin 9
YStep to P7 Pin 10
YDir to P7 Pin 11
ZStep to P7 Pin 12
ZDir to P7 Pin 13

Now go back to Kmotion, and open the Step Response dialog. Using this dialog, you can jog the axes, to make sure everything is working as it should. Most of the settings on here don't apply to you, so you can ignore them. The only ones you need care about are the Channel selection at the top center, the Motion Profile V(elocity) and A(cceleration) settings on the left middle, and the Step Time and Size settings on the lower left. Honestly, I don't even recall how this works, and don't have my board handy to try it, but it's pretty obvious once you play with it. Enter values, Click on either Step or Move, and the axis should move the specified number of steps. I wouldn't do anything more than just ensure you CAN move all three axes.

Assuming you got all three axes to move, open KMotionCNC, and click on ToolSettings->TrajectoryPlanner, and set the Counts/inch, Velocity and Accel for the X/Y/Z axes. Then go to ToolSetup->UserButtons, and setup the first UserButton to run your Init.c on Thread 1.

Click on the Init User Button, and I think you *should* be up and running.

Regards,
Ray L.

--- In DynoMotion@yahoogroups.com, "Ron" <ron.dunn@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for your help, Ray.
>
> My machine uses step/dir signals to the drivers. The pulse width is at least 5us, and the driver uses negative logic.
>
> The drivers are currently set for quarter-stepping, I could change this if necessary.
>
> The screws are 12tpi, single start.
>
> I don't care whether the controller runs in mm or inches, I can fix that in gcode.
>
> I have no requirements for spindle control, coolant, limits, or anything like that.
>
> This should be as simple as you can get and still have a 3-axis CNC :)
>
> Ron.
>
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3185 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Hi Ron,
 
It seems like KFLOP is inappropriate for your needs.  Also KFLOP is incompatible with your drives.
 
KFLOP was intended for use at high step rates and has a max pulse width setting of 3.78us as described here:
 
 
We don't currently have any workaround for drives that require longer pulses or longer Direction setup time than this. 
 
You can send us back the KFLOP to receive a full refund.
 
Regards
Tom Kerekes
Dynomotion, Inc.
 
 
 
 
 
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3188 From: Ron Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Hi Tom,

Thank you for pointing out the issue of driver compatibility, I'd completely missed that point.

I'll return the controller.

By the way, while I was not comfortable with the "fit and finish" of the product, I definitely respect the depth of feedback you give in this group. Good to see :)

Ron.
Group: DynoMotion Message: 3197 From: Tom Kerekes Date: 1/18/2012
Subject: Re: Ouch :( What have I bought?
Hi Ron,
 
Please send to:
 
Dynomotion
c/o Tom Kerekes RMA#13
3532 Adamsville Ave
Calabasas, CA 91302
 
 
BTW I couldn't find any flaw in the screen shot you posted.  I guess you didn't like the diagonal Z-Jog button design.  The intent was to allow bigger buttons and also clearly differentiate the Z buttons from the X or Y buttons.  I could see how someone might not appreciate it.  There are other selectable screens, or you can change them.  But it is not a result of buggy or sloppy software.  At least not in that case :}
 
We realize how frustrating it is for new Users.  But I hope you realize that it is very difficult to offer the features and flexibility we allow and still keep things simple.  Its sort of like walking into a 747 and expecting to fly it without reading the manual because all you want to do is get from point A to point B like a car.  We have hundreds of pages of documentation which is all on-line, hyper-linked, context sensitive, and search-able.  Tremendous effort went into what we have.  I'm not saying it couldn't be improved.  The example you gave of not being able to find the "Step Size" is interesting.  The answer was 2 mouse clicks away.  The first was on "Help" and the Second on "Step Size".  I guess somehow that wasn't intuitive.
 
Anyway hopefully we can work together in the future.  Good luck with your projects.
 
Regards
TK